tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-474822155726017607.post9047608144574219013..comments2023-04-03T18:40:42.735+09:00Comments on The Caffeinated Symposium: "Realism" and Nihilism in Contemporary FantasyDave Cesaranohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01454928720043301400noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-474822155726017607.post-38034700877239353012012-06-29T23:10:28.568+09:002012-06-29T23:10:28.568+09:00Strange that there are only 3 comments here. Perh...Strange that there are only 3 comments here. Perhaps it is because there are too many themes, too many angles, and too many things upon which to comment. I could probably write ten or twelve; the only thing that keeps me from writing a post about this post is that I haven't read most of the books mentioned, and have no interest in reading them. I have always found the fantasy genre sterile and false; it does little or nothing to comment upon my perception of life, because it wraps itself too often in the argument that real life shouldn't limit the freedom of fantasy.<br /><br />I don't see much here to dissuade me from that. The profanity of the "new era" is a fantasy - the fantasy of masturbating children, who wish only to prance about in a world where they need not grow up and become respectable. But that is the childhood fantasy: no rules, no consequences. Why shouldn't it include scatology and sex?<br /><br />This comment is included only because I wish to make one point regarding Thomas Covenant's rape, and the lack of engorged members. Your position on the language, Dave, is all well and good - except that the scene as written is woefully short and vague, given that Covenant <i>harps on an on about it for six books.</i> The total wordage describing his feelings about the rape must exist in a ratio of about 200:1 when compared with the author's willingness to describe the nasty event. IF we're going to measure out the horror of the event by the thimble-full, and the guilt over the event by the oil tanker, the reader is going to feel somewhat cheated.<br /><br />An 'engorged member' might have at least made me feel I was actually there, as opposed to being the poor sod at the bar who has to hear about it for the umpty-umpty eleventh time.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-474822155726017607.post-2330607326724509742011-02-22T11:10:14.887+09:002011-02-22T11:10:14.887+09:00Excellent post. Grin's position got confused ...Excellent post. Grin's position got confused when he painted fantasy in terms of politics, immediately making others feel on the defensive rather than engaging the issue; thus the mass bandwagon-hopping in posts mocking Grin's politics rather than his point. However, I'm not sure if you can "separate" his politics from the discussion, thus my own reconsideration (but not retraction) on my blog. <br /><br />The quieter debate arising from Brian Murphy's initial post at "Black Gate" has been, I think, more fruitful in examining what fantasy is, what it does, and what ends "deconstructing" (or, rather, disenchanting) the genre achieves.<br /><br />I've found one review quite useful in articulating how both the Tolkien knockoff and the "realistic" blood, guts & cussing "movement" weaken the actual fantasy in a work:<br /> http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2007/07/the_name_of_the-comments.shtml<br /><br />The Morgan excerpt Brian featured does the same thing as Rothfuss's "bourgeois discursive style familiar from the modern realist novel"; both clash with their settings. Rather than feeling "real", these stylistic choices actually make a work feel less so. As Tolkien stated in "On Fairy Stories": you feel the artifice, and must suspend your disbelief, rather than simply believe.Michalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02198881279554204600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-474822155726017607.post-40918689500907146532011-02-21T20:15:10.567+09:002011-02-21T20:15:10.567+09:00Thanks, Dennis. I'm still interested in what ...Thanks, Dennis. I'm still interested in what you might have to say, so by all means, throw your 2¢ into the ring.<br /><br />I avoided the bloat issue because I deal with it primarily in <a href="http://caffeinesymposium.blogspot.com/2010/08/robert-jordan-and-brain-damage.html" rel="nofollow">this essay</a>. Granted, its about Robert Jordan more than anything, but I hope the message gets across. Yeah, my take on Jordan is somewhat hyperbolic, but I see a real, serious problem with what his influence has done with fantasy.Dave Cesaranohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01454928720043301400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-474822155726017607.post-14999676753951905712011-02-21T20:02:11.955+09:002011-02-21T20:02:11.955+09:00Well said. The essay I had in mind writing last w...Well said. The essay I had in mind writing last week would have touched on many of these points as well, since it was a lot of the articles you'd sent me links for that got me thinking about it.<br /><br />The only thing I had wanted to touch on that you didn't here was the bloat that infects so much modern fantasy fiction.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.com